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	<title>Comments on: BioSLED &#8211; best argument against abortion-choice</title>
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	<description>Burning off the dross</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Arsenault</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-140</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Arsenault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 02:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-140</guid>
		<description>Hi David - thanks for your comments.  Although we both believe abortion should be illegal, we have different views regarding what constitutes human personhood, and whether that is additive or intrinsic. 

I believe the human person is an intrinsic whole:  a person&#039;s spirit is inseparable from their body. This whole  constitutes the entirety of their person.  I have sound Biblical reasons for believing this to be the case.  I believe a person has a spirit, but this is intrinsic - not additive. It doesn&#039;t come and go, nor is it detachable as we think of as parts/pieces relationships. 

Whatever our views regarding personhood, we must not forget that it is a human body which is destroyed during abortion.  My simple test for proof of personhood is to be subjected to the same destruction which is done to the unborn, and then once destroyed, to prove your person was completely unaffected.  Such proof would require supernatural communication, because your natural life would cease to exist!

The danger in arguing personhood as an additive and not intrinsic nature of being is that doing so leaves too much philosophical wiggle room.  Peter Singer makes such arguments.   I contend if he doesn&#039;t know when he became a person, then it would be impossible for him to claim any development of the body he inhabits as being &quot;his development&quot;.  Further, how could he claim the body he inhabits as &quot;his&quot; - how would we proscribe ownership/title to that body?  It&#039;s illogical.

Our bodies are grounded in flesh at conception, and whatever the spiritual outgrowth of that momentous event is immaterial to the physical destructive procedure of abortion. Arguments purely in the spiritual realm are outside our jurisdiction!

You may wish to study the materials at http://www.ehd.org/.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi David &#8211; thanks for your comments.  Although we both believe abortion should be illegal, we have different views regarding what constitutes human personhood, and whether that is additive or intrinsic. </p>
<p>I believe the human person is an intrinsic whole:  a person&#8217;s spirit is inseparable from their body. This whole  constitutes the entirety of their person.  I have sound Biblical reasons for believing this to be the case.  I believe a person has a spirit, but this is intrinsic &#8211; not additive. It doesn&#8217;t come and go, nor is it detachable as we think of as parts/pieces relationships. </p>
<p>Whatever our views regarding personhood, we must not forget that it is a human body which is destroyed during abortion.  My simple test for proof of personhood is to be subjected to the same destruction which is done to the unborn, and then once destroyed, to prove your person was completely unaffected.  Such proof would require supernatural communication, because your natural life would cease to exist!</p>
<p>The danger in arguing personhood as an additive and not intrinsic nature of being is that doing so leaves too much philosophical wiggle room.  Peter Singer makes such arguments.   I contend if he doesn&#8217;t know when he became a person, then it would be impossible for him to claim any development of the body he inhabits as being &#8220;his development&#8221;.  Further, how could he claim the body he inhabits as &#8220;his&#8221; &#8211; how would we proscribe ownership/title to that body?  It&#8217;s illogical.</p>
<p>Our bodies are grounded in flesh at conception, and whatever the spiritual outgrowth of that momentous event is immaterial to the physical destructive procedure of abortion. Arguments purely in the spiritual realm are outside our jurisdiction!</p>
<p>You may wish to study the materials at <a href="http://www.ehd.org/." rel="nofollow">http://www.ehd.org/.</a></p>
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		<title>By: David Kneusel</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-139</link>
		<dc:creator>David Kneusel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 00:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-139</guid>
		<description>Your argument is a very good one. However, I think it is fairly obvious that there is a separation between the human body and the person. It&#039;s because a human body contains a human person that it is intrinsically valuable, versus a dead body which is just a lump of cells. It&#039;s not DNA that gives us worth as a person,it&#039;s the soul (for lack of a non-religious term) which makes us who we are. I can prove my personhood without having to show a body with an independent set of DNA. Take for example, the concept of rational thought. There is nothing in our biological system which accounts for our ability to understand the images and sounds that our senses put in our brain. There is no biological explanation for the ability of humans to disobey animal instinct. In both these situations, there is clearly an &quot;other&quot; who understands what his/her eyes see and decides to do his/her own will instead of what instinct says to do. This makes the argument against abortion even stronger, because it doesn&#039;t just violate the rights of a biological human, but the rights of a human person. The fetus is, for all we know, a complete human person without a complete body. Like an artist with a damaged instrument. This is why any attempt to assign personhood at an arbitrary time after conception fails.Since we don&#039;t know when the human body receives the human person, it is better to err on the side of caution and make abortion illegal than risk violating another person&#039;s right to life, whether their body is capable of sensing the abuse or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your argument is a very good one. However, I think it is fairly obvious that there is a separation between the human body and the person. It&#8217;s because a human body contains a human person that it is intrinsically valuable, versus a dead body which is just a lump of cells. It&#8217;s not DNA that gives us worth as a person,it&#8217;s the soul (for lack of a non-religious term) which makes us who we are. I can prove my personhood without having to show a body with an independent set of DNA. Take for example, the concept of rational thought. There is nothing in our biological system which accounts for our ability to understand the images and sounds that our senses put in our brain. There is no biological explanation for the ability of humans to disobey animal instinct. In both these situations, there is clearly an &#8220;other&#8221; who understands what his/her eyes see and decides to do his/her own will instead of what instinct says to do. This makes the argument against abortion even stronger, because it doesn&#8217;t just violate the rights of a biological human, but the rights of a human person. The fetus is, for all we know, a complete human person without a complete body. Like an artist with a damaged instrument. This is why any attempt to assign personhood at an arbitrary time after conception fails.Since we don&#8217;t know when the human body receives the human person, it is better to err on the side of caution and make abortion illegal than risk violating another person&#8217;s right to life, whether their body is capable of sensing the abuse or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Arsenault</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Arsenault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 20:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-131</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right - so far 100% of the responses to that question choose to &lt;em&gt;forego&lt;/em&gt; such a demonstration!

Thanks Cath!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right &#8211; so far 100% of the responses to that question choose to <em>forego</em> such a demonstration!</p>
<p>Thanks Cath!</p>
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		<title>By: Cath</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator>Cath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-130</guid>
		<description>Interesting and persuasive arguments.

I think, though, that in the refutation of non-personhood arguments, you mean &#039;undergo&#039; and not &#039;forgo.&#039;  Most people, I imagine, would be quite willing to forgo that kind of destruction!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting and persuasive arguments.</p>
<p>I think, though, that in the refutation of non-personhood arguments, you mean &#8216;undergo&#8217; and not &#8216;forgo.&#8217;  Most people, I imagine, would be quite willing to forgo that kind of destruction!</p>
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		<title>By: BioSLED - Bodily-autonomy Abortion Absurdity &#124; ThruFire</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-120</link>
		<dc:creator>BioSLED - Bodily-autonomy Abortion Absurdity &#124; ThruFire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 16:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-120</guid>
		<description>[...] to apply BioSLED &#8211; the best argument against abortion-choice against those who insist a mother&#8217;s &#8220;right to bodily autonomy&#8221; justifies [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to apply BioSLED &#8211; the best argument against abortion-choice against those who insist a mother&#8217;s &ldquo;right to bodily autonomy&rdquo; justifies [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Arsenault</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-113</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Arsenault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-113</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;#commentbody-111&quot;&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-111&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nik said&lt;/a&gt; :&lt;/strong&gt;
In general, I tend to agree with your argument.  However, you don’t address the fact that the majority of abortion candidates are uneducated and poor,... one would be endorsing increasing the violent crime rate, the illiteracy rate, and the poverty rate in the US.  Is that an acceptable trade-off?  &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your question (counter-argument, really) implies 1) that humans are only &lt;i&gt;functionally valuable&lt;/i&gt;, not &lt;b&gt;immeasurably&lt;/b&gt; valuable;  and 2) people can&#039;t change when they face adverse conditions.

That&#039;s a very depressing perspective. Simple question: do you love people for who they are, or for what they do for you?  Would you tell someone you &quot;loved&quot; they were only functional to you?

Further, your justification (via Ayn Rand) based on human exceptionalism only works if you are exceptional. Do you realize you live entirely at the mercy of others upholding their responsibility not to kill you?   Seriously.  Laws on paper are only good to the point where people believe there is a morality behind them.  And last time I checked murder continues.  Shall we talk about that likelihood?


You contend my argument is based on emotion, while yours isn&#039;t. However, at the very core of your argument is a pure hypocrisy: 

 you condone violence to avert violence;  
deadly force is merciful and morally justifiable against innocent human beings;
killing our own children is an act of responsibility to others;
and, ultimately the violence of abortion is an appeal to force to remove the assertion (truth) of the child.


Sorry, that&#039;s not rational, it&#039;s insane. So your logic is invalid and your charge false.  Nik - your comment looks fearful,  very typical of pro-choice &quot;population-control&quot; arguments - &quot;get them before they get us.&quot;

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-111&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nik said&lt;/a&gt; :&lt;/strong&gt;The way to minimize the number of abortions performed is to minimize the number of unintended pregnancies.  Where does your group stand on contraception, birth control and sex education?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

 Group, what group?  My family and I believe in the sanctity of marriage, the blessing of chilldren, that sex is a family matter, not a public one and that sex education should be frank discussions between parents and their children, not for the public to impose upon our family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="#commentbody-111"><p>
<strong><a href="#comment-111" rel="nofollow">Nik said</a> :</strong><br />
In general, I tend to agree with your argument.  However, you don’t address the fact that the majority of abortion candidates are uneducated and poor,&#8230; one would be endorsing increasing the violent crime rate, the illiteracy rate, and the poverty rate in the US.  Is that an acceptable trade-off?  </p></blockquote>
<p>Your question (counter-argument, really) implies 1) that humans are only <i>functionally valuable</i>, not <b>immeasurably</b> valuable;  and 2) people can&#8217;t change when they face adverse conditions.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a very depressing perspective. Simple question: do you love people for who they are, or for what they do for you?  Would you tell someone you &#8220;loved&#8221; they were only functional to you?</p>
<p>Further, your justification (via Ayn Rand) based on human exceptionalism only works if you are exceptional. Do you realize you live entirely at the mercy of others upholding their responsibility not to kill you?   Seriously.  Laws on paper are only good to the point where people believe there is a morality behind them.  And last time I checked murder continues.  Shall we talk about that likelihood?</p>
<p>You contend my argument is based on emotion, while yours isn&#8217;t. However, at the very core of your argument is a pure hypocrisy: </p>
<p> you condone violence to avert violence;<br />
deadly force is merciful and morally justifiable against innocent human beings;<br />
killing our own children is an act of responsibility to others;<br />
and, ultimately the violence of abortion is an appeal to force to remove the assertion (truth) of the child.</p>
<p>Sorry, that&#8217;s not rational, it&#8217;s insane. So your logic is invalid and your charge false.  Nik &#8211; your comment looks fearful,  very typical of pro-choice &#8220;population-control&#8221; arguments &#8211; &#8220;get them before they get us.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p><strong><a href="#comment-111" rel="nofollow">Nik said</a> :</strong>The way to minimize the number of abortions performed is to minimize the number of unintended pregnancies.  Where does your group stand on contraception, birth control and sex education?
</p></blockquote>
<p> Group, what group?  My family and I believe in the sanctity of marriage, the blessing of chilldren, that sex is a family matter, not a public one and that sex education should be frank discussions between parents and their children, not for the public to impose upon our family.</p>
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		<title>By: Nik</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Nik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-111</guid>
		<description>In general, I tend to agree with your argument.  However, you don&#039;t address the fact that the majority of abortion candidates are uneducated and poor, and if these children were to be born, then they would be impoverished, likely grow up to continue the cycle of generational poverty, and to commit crimes.  By advocating criminalizing abortion in the US, then, one would be endorsing increasing the violent crime rate, the illiteracy rate, and the poverty rate in the US.  Is that an acceptable trade-off?  Perhaps one in a million of these unborn children would accomplish great things (assuming an even distribution of success)... Ayn Rand says only about one in three-hundred people (about 3z) matter.  So, 299/300 of these aborted children don&#039;t matter? And that&#039;s assuming that these infants have the same chance as born infants to matter... in fact, these children are LEAST likely of all to have exceptional lives.  When your entire argument and political stance is based on exceptional, unusual cases and not likelihoods, few thinking people are interested in buying into your arguments.  Yours is an entirely emotional, not rational, argument.

The way to minimize the number of abortions performed is to minimize the number of unintended pregnancies.  Where does your group stand on contraception, birth control and sex education?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In general, I tend to agree with your argument.  However, you don&#8217;t address the fact that the majority of abortion candidates are uneducated and poor, and if these children were to be born, then they would be impoverished, likely grow up to continue the cycle of generational poverty, and to commit crimes.  By advocating criminalizing abortion in the US, then, one would be endorsing increasing the violent crime rate, the illiteracy rate, and the poverty rate in the US.  Is that an acceptable trade-off?  Perhaps one in a million of these unborn children would accomplish great things (assuming an even distribution of success)&#8230; Ayn Rand says only about one in three-hundred people (about 3z) matter.  So, 299/300 of these aborted children don&#8217;t matter? And that&#8217;s assuming that these infants have the same chance as born infants to matter&#8230; in fact, these children are LEAST likely of all to have exceptional lives.  When your entire argument and political stance is based on exceptional, unusual cases and not likelihoods, few thinking people are interested in buying into your arguments.  Yours is an entirely emotional, not rational, argument.</p>
<p>The way to minimize the number of abortions performed is to minimize the number of unintended pregnancies.  Where does your group stand on contraception, birth control and sex education?</p>
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		<title>By: BioSLED - essential pro-life position &#124; ThruFire</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>BioSLED - essential pro-life position &#124; ThruFire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-102</guid>
		<description>[...] BioSLED - the best argument against abortion-choice. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] BioSLED &#8211; the best argument against abortion-choice. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Embryology Texts &#124; ThruFire</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>Embryology Texts &#124; ThruFire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 15:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-101</guid>
		<description>[...] texts are invaluable when you use BioSLED to defend life. They provide the &#8220;Bio&#8221; - logical scientific portion of the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] texts are invaluable when you use BioSLED to defend life. They provide the &#8220;Bio&#8221; &#8211; logical scientific portion of the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: BioSLED - Handling Bodily Autonomy Abortion Arguments &#124; ThruFire</title>
		<link>http://www.thrufire.com/blog/2009/02/biosled-anti-abortion-argument/comment-page-1/#comment-92</link>
		<dc:creator>BioSLED - Handling Bodily Autonomy Abortion Arguments &#124; ThruFire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 16:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thrufire.com/blog/?p=629#comment-92</guid>
		<description>[...] to apply BioSLED - the best argument against abortion-choice against those who believe a mother&#8217;s &#8220;right to bodily autonomy&#8221; justifies [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to apply BioSLED &#8211; the best argument against abortion-choice against those who believe a mother&#8217;s &#8220;right to bodily autonomy&#8221; justifies [...]</p>
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